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Aldegar

Complete hobby grade blaster

I am working with men gun to bring the world a very exciting complete blaster.  First off, it is spring powered. Most of this is due to the fact that they are very popular in China which makes up a very large portion of the world wide Nerf market. They like high power, much like Singapore they run a lot of stefan shooting longshots. Nerf is huge over there! Anyway the design is pretty epic IMO
https://www.facebook.com/tacticoolfoamnerf/posts/1695970490694730

Would love to hear your opinions
UKNerfWar

My questions would be these...

Does it shoot full length darts?
Is it compatible with Nerf mags?
Does it take standard Nerf or airsoft stocks?
Are the internals unique to this blaster or does it harvest them from Nerf/airsoft?
Will there be upgrade options for it or will it only be available full spec?

If all of the parts are unique to the blaster, what will they be doing about spare parts when I eventually snap something (with my big ham hands). Hopefully they'll make spares available.

Most of these questions are likely unanswerable at the moment. I don't know the terms of your contract with them and I don't know at what stage of development they are but any answers you can give will be great.

I'm a little disappointed with how it looks if I'm honest. Building from scratch they could have done anything they liked and made something unique and amazing. What they decided to develop is a Retaliator with a PA kit. For that reason alone, I'm rather underwhelmed. Looks sweet, but rather unimaginative. But that's just one guy's opinion.
Minky

It's great that guys are out there designing new blasters and giving more silhouettes and flavours than the toy companies!

That being said, (and bearing in mind current day Mil-sim is not my flavour at all) it doesn't look original enough for me to think it pretty and as far as the performance goes although I'm sure it'll blow anyone's socks off I worry about the new lethal weapon legislation making the use of these difficult off airsoft sites. ..and.. Y'know FlyWheelMasterRace.

I feel a hypocrite because I want to get behind new blasters and I actually love how some of the Singaporean stuff looks, springers or no, but I can't get excited about this one.

So not my cup of tea old chap. Apologies.
Boff

I said it on Reddit, I said it via email and I'll say it here: meh.

The 'it's brightly coloured so won't get you shot' thing, you're posting that on a forum for a country where a CO-19 armed response team shot a guy for wielding a table leg because they thought it was a firearm. A fucking table leg. For the sake of the man's family, I wish I was joking. And CO-19 teams aren't your average copper with a Glock, they're highly trained specialists.

Having an M4 profile when they could have gone for any kind of elegant sci-fi design to distinguish Nerf from restricted games like airsoft is a big no. The more I think about this, the more I think it's actively detrimental to the Nerf community here in the UK. With a profile like that, it could be the trigger that turns around and sees us coming under legal sanction because some twit decided to run one in a park and the silhouette at a distance was enough for plod to drop the hammer. This is different from the body kits you so love because the barrier to entry is so much lower.

Men gun have missed a huge opportunity with this. I'm sure it will cater to whatever Chinese/Singaporean market is out there but both of those communities are fairly isolated and don't interact much with the outside world. The result is similar to island gigantism seen in ecology. In isolated areas like an island , the evolution of a specific trait becomes magnified and distorted to the point where you get Komodo Dragons. The same applies to the Singaporean community and, it would seem the Chinese community. Here in the West, we have our semi-automatic blasters (flywheel or otherwise) that dominate the field and make for dynamic game play. You have surely noticed the strong demarcation between SG and the rest of the Nerf market on this side of the Great Firewall?

I'm not strictly wed to flywheels as a technology but I am wed to SA/FA and you need to provide that to compete in the Western market. Yes, flywheels are super durable and much more rugged than their spring counterparts but they are a means to an end. They're an easy way to get SA/FA. I play GC in a very dusty environment at Broadstone Warren, I've seen brass and other metal breeches scratch up in minutes leaving the player without a blaster while my Stryfe is still shooting 3 days later. They need to match that sort of durability in addition to everything else.

Of course, and I'll repeat what I said on email: open your wallet, get this thing into the Western market and prove me wrong. I'll admit defeat the day I'm facing a battle line of Men Gun M4 replicas at Green Cloaks. Smile
Zenif

Yea sorry even with a bright orange paint scheme this design screams gun replica.

Don't get me wrong I am all for some level of 'real feel' in a Nerf gun and I am into sci-fi themed stuff. Due to the props in many popular films this verges on WW1 WW2  gun bits.. Sterling sub-machine guns and bren guns.. etc..

But I still have to make Mr plod think.. kids laser gun.. not oh look a guy with replica AK / painted m16 gun.

Sure you can run around a private property but you still have to take all those extra precautions restrictions and worries. So I unfortunately won't be making a M41A Pulse Rifle cause it is just too close to a modern firearm even in bright alien purple.
Aldegar

I like all this input but at the end of the day this thing will be a much more flexible building platform than a one off design, there are a billion different configurations to make an AR uniquely yours. When it comes to the whole debate about the shape looking too realistic, from more than 5 feet away any blaster can look like a weapon. Sure, someone could paint this black and go out at night and walk around like a crazed gunman and get shot but if a group of people having a Nerf battle at a public park with these was seen, nobody is going to think that there is a group of terrorists. If you do live in a place where there is more than average gun crime, it's probably a good idea to let the authorities know in advance about a war regardless of what blasters are being used. That is just common sense. Bottom line, anyone could make the same argument about any blaster. From afar, you will not be able to tell the difference between the two and if you are close enough to see the details you have already realized it's a toy. I can easily just switch to airsoft but I like Nerf more, I can play Nerf with my wife and kids and I can play Nerf when it's convenient for me or in public places. I really don't see why the NIC is in complete denial that this is a milsim hobby. We are running around shooting each other, there is nothing wrong with that, we are not shooting bullets.  I have talked to teachers, cops, moms, and dads outside the NIC and they all think it's completely acceptable and is a much safer alternative to airsoft.
Boff

Competitive tag sport != milsim hobby. Smile I'll flesh this out more when I get back from the pool. I'll need something interesting to do during this stock take...
Aldegar

Bro, you are in the business of selling tactical gear. IMO someone in full tac gear is way more alarming than someone with a neon gun replica. We play army! Sci-fi army, US army, whatever it makes zero difference. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
Shady-daze

I don't think this product would be well suited to the UK market, as others have mentioned the realistic aspect is a big issue, yes anything can be mistaken as a firearm but going for a more realistic design is just going to increase your chances, it doesn't mean you will or won't get it mistaken but on a risk scale you are more at risk with a realistic profile than you are with a classic stryfe body.

Quote:
someone in full tac gear is way more alarming than someone with a neon gun replica.

I think maybe this might be a US, UK difference but tactical gear isn't that surprising to see in the UK, Army surplus stores are quite common, as a Hiker I know lots of people who use surplus gear to carry bits on walks and will then go to the local pub. Sure if someone came walking around in full SWAT gear that might be different but I've yet to see anyone go that far in the hobby.


This isn't even to mention the legal issues you'll run into trying to sell such a design in the UK, kits you can get away with because without the rest of the blaster they don't resemble a firearm but a full sized AR you will have to on your end verify the buyer is 18 otherwise you are committing a legal offence in the UK regardless of its colour. I don't even know how HR Customs would factor into it but I would assume it wouldn't be an easy ordeal.

UK law is also changing on blasters limiting the use to just one joule (well only those with barrels so flywheels can still have a higher limit), while yes this blaster has a lot of custom ability the factor of the matter is for $150 (+ shipping) you could build something for far less that would just come shy of that 1j limit and have the same effectiveness.

I respect the time and effort put into designing a hobby grade blaster and I like the concept but at least in the UK I don't think it would be the wisest choice nor one that would catch on easily for the US and Singapore market these maybe more desirable due to laxer restrictions and lower Milsim alternatives.
Northwind

Boff wrote:
The 'it's brightly coloured so won't get you shot' thing, you're posting that on a forum for a country where a CO-19 armed response team shot a guy for wielding a table leg because they thought it was a firearm. A fucking table leg. For the sake of the man's family, I wish I was joking. And CO-19 teams aren't your average copper with a Glock, they're highly trained specialists.


To be fair, they also thought he was Irish. So as long as you're not carrying a table-leg and Irish, or scottish, you're probably fine.

I was wondering about this though, obviously the real steel thing is a huge draw for some people (and seems to be growing in popularity) but it's a huge turnoff for others. Hasbro have shown the way forward here though if you want to please everyone- reshell!

Not sure I'm the target market tbh, I like what I call the toy-ness of Nerf, but I wish it all the best.
UKNerfWar

I think the 'this thing is too milsim' argument is irrelevant and boring. This blaster is no more 'realistic' than a Retaliator with a few accessories and way moreso than a table leg. The main issue should the police show up is your attitude towards them. People have been apprehended with real, live firearms in public and not shot because they (eventually) submit. Nobody playing with one of these (or any Nerf blaster) is going to threaten armed police with it (because let's face it, that's the only way you're going to provoke them into shooting). If they do then frankly they deserve to be shot.

Can we please look past this issue and discuss this blaster on it's other features?
Boff

UKNerfWar wrote:
Can we please look past this issue and discuss this blaster on it's other features?


This. Aldegar has failed to answer most of UKNW's original questions around its features. I'd like to know why OP thinks this blaster is appropriate for the western market populated heavily by semi-auto and fully auto blasters to the point of becoming the standard.
Aldegar

FYI this is not the first or last of it's kind, I know of at least 5 different similar projects. These will be inexpensive ready made modded blasters. If it was not for me being very vocal with these companies they would most likely have been all black. Nerf is China's version of airsoft.  Their market has dramatically changed recently, all the sudden people have spending money and can afford toys! Our portion of this makes up very little of these companies sales so telling them we want space beam blasters is like us telling Hasbro we want high performance. It's coming so rather than freak out why not focus on public awareness. I call the authorities prior to any war and let them know and I don't go out in full tac gear with my blaster looking like a lone gun man. EASY!

On to features: This blaster will be everything you ever wanted in a retaliator. Baseline it will fire full length darts. Options will include a short dart breech, larger plunger tube, slam fire and all kinds of other goodness. Cross compatitbility: you can use any mag you want but there will be extra mags available for cheap too in both full and short length versions. Exterior will be cross compatible with both nstrike and airsoft parts. Lots of options, in fact this is the most versatile blaster to date. Not only will you be able to dial in your performance between 100-200 fps, choose your dart length, but open up a massive collection of accessories. There are soooooo many ways to build an AR to make it uniquely yours to suit your needs and the parts are already widely available through the airsoft market. I can't talk about some other projects but I will say that we can expect much more blasters like this and many new players using them we can either embrace this change or become a sub hobby of purists who will only use blasters made by the almighty Hasbro.

EDIT

Posts merged. I appreciate what you were trying to do but please don't double post - even in this case it caused more confusion than it prevented.

SSGT

Boff

Again, you're focusing on the colour. That wasn't what was asked. UKNW's original questions were thus:

Does it shoot full length darts?
Is it compatible with Nerf mags?
Does it take standard Nerf or airsoft stocks?
Are the internals unique to this blaster or does it harvest them from Nerf/airsoft?
Will there be upgrade options for it or will it only be available full spec?

And I added the following question:

Will there be SA/FA versions available to the western market?

I don't give a stuff that the Chinese market thinks of Nerf and airsoft as an equivalence. They can produce everything under the sun, I'm only interested in the stuff that could be relevant to the western market. I would like answers to the above questions in the context of the market we are functioning: the western market formed from the sum of the United States, Australia and the UK (and to a lesser extent the EU).
old_man_nerf

Looks like a bit of cross posting went on there.

Personally I love it - but then I am a fan of the retaliator so no real surprises there!

After my post on reddit asking about the Chinese Nerf scene I can see how something like this would sell very well over there.

PS I doubt mengun give a flying whatever about western Nerf requirements. The market in China is where the money is....
Aldegar

Sorry, rather than posting an extremely long post I addressed the two main points in two seperate posts. I think the only question I didn't answer would be regarding different types of blasters and like I said, I can't say too much yet but will say that their market is not like the Singapore market where it is springer dominated. If you want to see the future just look at how much product development has gone into flywheels already in which we the western world owe our gratitude for breaking the old glass ceiling. From what we have already seen you can expect FA/SA and you can also expect them to bring even more advancements in performance outside what we already know as standard. There will be a time when you will realize that the performance and practicality have gone so far beyond our toy tinkering that you will have to start 3d printing bulbous abstract attachments to make it look less tacticool just so you can keep up on standard performance.
Taemu_touhi

I like the idea of an out of the box high performance blaster. It would be nice if it had a more unique look to it, but I think as a starter product it's fine. This is assuming you will be developing/bringing other blasters, so not only springers in the future.

Though I understand the problem with blasters looking too realistic, there have been tons of cosmetic kits out there which makes Hasbro's blasters look like a real-steel equivalent.
OldNoob

Also higher crush flywheels in aluminium cages was invented by DRS, in Germany.
Boff

I infer from your comment that we won't be seeing a change in aesthetic coming from the other side of the Great Firewall any time soon? Even if we get SA/FA variants? They're just going to keep pumping out stuff for their own market that you're going to pull across and flog this side? Shame, it would have been nice to have something off the shelf that looks like a nice sci-fi rifle or sleek raygun. I guess I'll have to make my own blaster with black jack and hookers...

I guess this all proves one thing: we need to produce something to match/beat the Chinese in engineering and quality that won't get you shot. Sure we won't be able to keep up with output volume but we understand our market better than the Chinese ever will.
Aldegar

A valid point, totally forgot about that one but it was not a game changer since it was not a commercially available product but a custom order that very few have had the privilege to own. Mad respect for him creating the first but I am talking about the the fact that 99% of high end flywheel builds at this point contain some sort of Chinese flywheel.
OldNoob

It also worked every time and he made a 3d printed mass market one, as did Hawki.
Agreed you couldn't describe it as a mass market product.
I am supportive of proper equipment being available off the peg, but this has the same fundamental issues as the JetX in its design, where it essentially does the same as a pump longshot/retal for a lot more money. Sure it potentially shoots harder but won't be insurable for UK official games, which leaves either dropping back the spring power or being restricted to closed field adult only games. It will also sit firmly in the "barrelled air weapon" category if it's over 1j, meaning it cannot be used in any public space.
I will be interested to see the finished product and am sure it will be very successful. It's not likely to make a big impact here, but we are  the tiniest pimple on the arse of the global hobby market!
Good luck with it, ignore the NIC, they are not the market.
Aldegar

Probably going to cost a lot less than a scratch built blaster in the end and with the same type of fps requirements in china it will most likely come out of the box @ around 100fps.
OldNoob

100fps is a good level. A retal and a 5kg spring does that for £35 though.
A 10kg longshot costs £10-15 for the blaster plus two bits of brass at £11 then Gavins pump kit at £35, or a home made one using a deploy or raider, about£10. That would shoot 130-170fps for a total of £35-60 depending on pump grip.
With import duty and VAT I can't see this being under £100 surely? There's a substantial investement to recover in tooling and the JetX is £65 or so with no internals.
If you were selling a Lipo capable Stryfe with well machined wheels and cage for that, even better in a shell with battery space, you would be getting a lot more orders.
Aldegar

Also you mention Jet, a lot of exciting new stuff with them too! They have split from xplorer and are creating some really promising looking internals. Their next goal is a neon colored complete xzues2 blaster with full length dart sealed breach, 14kg spring load and an msrp of $90
I really like the shell to be honest, a pump LS is so bulky so a slimmed down version for high fps games is a nice alternative. One could in theory build a sealed breech pump LS for slightly less but with way more effort and most likely less reliability.
OldNoob

I would argue the point on reliability, given that the Jet uses the same parts. Plus if I make something I can set the tolerances.
I agree the shell looks nice. I have a Jet inbound for evaluation, people will be able to get hands on with it at games. Another full length sealed breech is good news, Orange Mod Works are working on a kit one as well.
I have to say the last 12 months has been pretty amazing, lots of new boundaries broken and more gear than I think anyone imagined would be possible even a year previously. At oeast with several makers entering the market there's a good chance one of them will make what we want.
Boff

OldNoob wrote:
Good luck with it, ignore the NIC, they are not the market.


No, don't ignore the NIC. We form a critical evaluative coven that offer informed feedback to manufacturers. Yes, we might be less than 1% of the total hobby market but they also the engaged and informed players. Players that are often game organisers or key figures in their own local games that carry a lot of word of mouth weight. Those players also have a lot of experience with products and will lead on what the market wants. Yes, they might produce it themselves a lot of the time but if you get a product right, they'll tell a lot of people about it. They might throw shit at you but you can turn that shit into manure to grow a decent product. I do it with BSUK all the time...

Speaking of shit, we are starting to see enough of it thrown that something might stick...
OldNoob

Much as we might think we carry a lot of weight, I think even my ego isn't big enough for a market the size of the USA or China to care about.
Speaking of games, most of the people attending the most successful games in the country didn't find it through any hobby forums or sites. Even GC is still small compared to the mass of players engaged through non hobby routes. Very few of those players care about who made/what is in their gear, they simply want to be able to buy it and play, hence this stuff will sell, regardless of wether we like it.
It's no coincidence that even Hasbros new marketing strategy involves ignoring the adult "fan" type bloggers and NIC folk in favour of other outlets.
Aldegar

A little off topic but that Jet Alpha breech looks really nice! Also, I can handle any shit the NIC has to dish out and fully expect people to voice perfectly valid concerns about safety. Moving forward we will see a lot of new players in the states and many of them will be using replica inspired blasters. Worker stuff is easily ordered on Amazon and Ebay in the states, one of the most popular being the stryfe kriss vector kit. I know there are plenty of tacticool nerfers on your side of the pond as well. Even if I wasn't totally mil-sim crazy like I am, I personally have very little control over this new trend and would like to start seeing more reasonable approaches towards keeping everyone safe besides trying to make blasters not look like guns because blasters do look like guns.
OldNoob

We have player guidelines to keep our game participants safe. Better run, more professional games is what's needed.

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